"we all struggle with insecurities and low confidence at times. and that's normal. but we should be more resilient overall, don't you think? throughout history people with extraordinary bodies have been admired. the ancient greeks carved statues of them. how many guys do you know who look like hercules? but i don't see many men complaining endlessly about their bodies, even though men in advertisements are very fit and muscular. we women want the world to treat us as equals, but in the mean time we fall short of acting like equals ourselves. i'm going to be brutally honest with you right here - when a girl starts bitching about her weight and how she hates all these 'skinny models' she loses credibility in my eyes. she comes off as not being smart enough to understand how damaging her words truly are, and that looks aren't everything. i wouldn't hire a girl who spoke that way for a job and if i was a guy i wouldn't date a girl like that unless i was planning on promptly discarding her."Comparing men and women in this respect is just plain wrong-headed. It only takes a little sociology and history to see that for a very long time, maybe always, there has been A REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE in the ways that the female body and the male body have been treated and perceived. The female body does not mean the same thing as the male body and I'm not sure it ever has.
So all that background, but you look at the fact that women in our time have issues around their bodies more often than men do, and you want to attribute that to the women themselves? Not even a consideration of the radically different economic, religious, and social realities that have been attached to the female body for centuries?
Quite simply, you're missing the significant variable.
***
I would really like to address the writer's mention of classical art, as well as offer an overview of what I mean by "radically different economic, religious, and social realities." To do it properly would basically entail outlining a research paper, but...I do have a good amount of free time this summer. We shall see. I kind of feel I owe it to you.
Tonight I just needed to make a quick venting response, though
thanks for your comment, little things like that make me feel better =)
ReplyDeleteAnd i agree with what you're saying here - pretty sure mens bodies haven't been the center of everything at any time. It's really two different topics
i don't understand why my post made you so angry and i wish you'd chosen to speak to me about it directly instead of posting this. i also find it rather perplexing that you wouldn't include a link to my post so people, if they choose, can read the entire article and see that the things i'm saying are not so "wrong-headed" after all.
ReplyDeletewhile men's bodies and women's bodies are perceived differently now and throughout history, my point is that both have been revered for their beauty throughout time. but the issue is the way each gender handles it, not the fact that they are perceived differently. do we women not desire equality and to be treated in the workplace and in social situations with the same respect as a man? that's what i'm discussing.
as a woman, who has studied sociology and classical art and gender issues and shame of you for insinuating i don't know what i'm talking about, i find it downright disgusting when i hear other women bitch endlessly about the thin models they see in magazines. it's rude and misguided and a horribly detrimental mentality to have and perpetuate to others. and while i know some men go through body image issues as well, on the whole, they are more resilient. all i'm saying is that women can be a bit more resilient as well. and in my "much longer" post i explain the situation with fashion and body image as i see it and hope that it will help other women understand that they can toughen up a bit. it's not going to hurt them.
if your opinion differs from my, that's fine. i love dissenting opinions because they provide an excellent opportunity to broaden our minds. but what i don't like is when people misunderstand me then write bitchy posts insinuating i have no idea what i'm talking about, when i assure you, my perspective is born out of time, research and a sincere desire to help people understand and feel better about themselves. body image is very important and personal to me, as i have struggled with these issues in the past and understand the mentality that accompanies them.
you've clearly misunderstood my perspective, evident from the most recent comment you left on my blog. which i responded to respectfully and asked you to read another of my posts because i'm interested in your opinion on that as well. i was hoping that instead of doing this, we could throw open the doors, metaphorically speaking, and enlighten each other by sharing our differing opinions. i never claim to be perfect or that everything i write is always worded in the best possible way, but i try my best and i hope that my readers won't, at very least, misinterpret my intentions. i feel you've done that.
kristy eléna - the piece of your post that i quoted makes me angry because it seems to blame women who are suffering. this blame belongs on the system that produces that kind of injustice, rather than on the people who are quite understandably affected by it.
ReplyDeletei have edited the post to include a link.
i think the issue is that what each gender is "handling" is something quite different--again, i think you're oversimplifying some tremendous historical baggage--so it's not fair to make the comparison you've made when you point out that men cope better than women with the portrayal of ideal bodies in the media.
i don't think it was wrong of me write a post of my own. that's what my blog is for me sometimes, a place to react and respond to ideas i've run into.
I feel as if brands and consumerism prey upon women's slight self-conscious tendencies and exaggerate/over-manifest them in the face of stereotypes. The exaggerated stereotypes are manifested again in girls and women today, I think.
ReplyDeleteactually I know many men who have body issues...just because you don't hear about it every day doesn't mean it's not happening...
ReplyDeleteI think everyone has a problem with their bodies...may it be a small one or big one.
i didn't say it was wrong of you to post, but there's a respectful and disrespectful way to disagree with someone. guess which one you chose! your post was condescending and made an asinine assumption that i didn't do my research. you've also completely misunderstood both my point and my intention.
ReplyDeletemy post is not "blaming" anyone. i'm simply saying that we CAN be more RESILIENT. why is that wrong? all this other stuff is an EXCUSE. historical baggage? this isn't about historical baggage. and there is no variable big enough that should keep women from liberating themselves from an unhealthy mentality.
that's what my post is about. i'm so sick of women blaming "the system." the system is by no means perfect but that doesn't mean we can't nut up a little. it doesn't mean that we can't accept responsibility for our own mentalities and our own health. that's like someone blaming mcdonald's for being overweight. i've been overweight and trust me, it was no one's fault but my own. and it wasn't until i accepted responsibility for my weight that i was able to really do something about it. besides, there are men who have body image issues as well and it has nothing to do with history of economic, religious or social history.
and what exactly are you trying to say? that because of historical baggage we can't MOVE ON and GET BETTER? what's so wrong about taking an example from men? i wrote my post because i think we as women are STRONGER than this. it's not an insult and it's not a blame. it's a challenge of this popular opinion that isn't doing us any favors. by defending it you're just perpetuating the problem. you've taken my post as some sort of insult to you when it isn't. you're saying we can't make that comparison because of historical issues. but of course we can compare ourselves to men, we want equality don't we? oh but i get it... it's ok to talk about equality and compare ourselves to men when it's talking about the good stuff like equal pay, but if someone brings to light something negative it's all "wah wah wah, but it's different!" no. it's not. it's time to learn that baggage or no baggage no one is going to do it for us. we have to do it ourselves. if we don't like the system then we need to try and change it without being petty and juvenile. if we want to see more women of varying body types in the media then we should want it for the right reasons. we should learn how to talk about it intelligently and correctly, without playing the victim card.
it doesn't help when women act like victims. and it only makes it worse for young girls when their example is an insecure woman who bitches about the media, acts like a victim then complains about lack of gender equality but gets pissed off if anyone makes a comparison that isn't favorable to women then tops it all off by treating fellow females poorly in a resounding example of hypocrisy.
and your post is just that. you could have disagreed with me, a fellow blogger and female, in a respectful way. if you really wanted to, you could have even found points in my post that you agreed with. you could have seen my true intentions and we could have discussed your disagreements in a gracious way to generate better understanding. but instead, you decided to "vent" your frustrations as though i had personally attacked you, when in reality that's what you're doing to me. and after i pointed that out in my first comment, your response was to tell me again that it's "not fair" for me to have the opinion i have while defending the rude way you stated your opinion. and you don't get how hypocritical that makes you sound.
In response to Kristy Elena: Looking at these posts I think it might be important to interject a few words. First, I agree that a woman acting like a victim and using it as an excuse is not a productive or healthy thing to do. I would say however that instead of "nutting up" (you might want to be careful of your language use this holds with it the assumption of male superiority) women need to be united to do something about this gross over representation of unhealthy bodies in the media. I don't think that being more "resilient" is really the answer. Where does that get us? In my mind, that only ensures that we except this position of inequality.
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that there is far less attention (although I admit it is still very present) given to male bodies in media. Watch almost any music video and you will see that men often take active roles while women are quiet, submissive, and wearing exposing clothing in the background.
Also, I would say that socialization is a huge part of why it is so much harder to be "resilient." Girls are taught from a young age that one of their most important assets is their bodies. Men are socialized to think they they need to be the dominant wage earners and less emphasis is put on their bodies (not to say that it isn't still a societal pressure). Men have more of a chance to succeed (albeit race, social, and human capital need to be taken into account as well) because of their own merit whereas women have to face society telling them that they are of less worth because they look a certain way.
These are just a few thoughts. I think there is definitely a time and place to be resilient, but in the face of injustice, it also needs to be paired with action.
dear rogue hobbit, you should read my initial post, it will give you a better understanding of where i stand on this subject. many of the things you mention are things i agree with.
ReplyDeletenutting up was a pun. and i don't apologize for my writing style, nor should i. it's just a word, there is no actual male superiority, only what we perceive. there's no need to fear it's use, by avoiding using such words we give them more power than they really have.
the very reason i choose to blog about these issues is because this is the way i take action. i challenge popular opinion despite the fact that people often misunderstand me. but i believe strongly in what i have to say and i feel it does help people. actually, i have proof it helps people in the form of comments, messages and emails that have been written to me thanking me for my words. every day in my life i take action and my blog is just an example of that. you should visit it and come be part of the action. plus it has the word rogue in the title as well. Vogue Gone Rogue
anyway, i'm kind of over this whole disagreement and i'm ready to put it behind me. holly, i've explored your blog and i think if we move past this little hiccup we could actually be blogger friends who may not always see eye to eye, but as a result challenge each other to see things in different ways.
ReplyDelete@pinkapplecore. I should have pointed it out. Then again, popular culture doesn't manifest/bring-out those insecurities.
ReplyDeleteGreat dialogue here! I agree Tangerine Mama! Well said.
ReplyDeleteI once read somewhere that people tend to be more opinionated and/or more open about their opinions online than in real life, face-to-face situations.
ReplyDeleteErin - I know I am! I'm like Miss Kowtowing Sheep IRL, but give me an opinion and an text based forum and I morph into she-woman!
ReplyDeleteI have a problem with equality. Physically, men and women will never be equal. This is because if we were, we would no longer be men or women. We would be like weird neuter creatures and the human race would die out really quickly.
Talking about body image issues is completely different to talking about wage equality or who looks after the kids (not that anyone mentioned this, but it's an example).
As for there being 'no male superiority', in many, many MANY cases, perception is reality. Take the letter A for example. In reality, it's three straight lines, joined together in a fancy way. Our perception of it is that it is the letter A. Is our perception wrong? Again, just an example.
I don't really have a point here. There are no cut and dry rules. It's not an issue I want to put forth my opinions on, because I'm pretty sure Kristy Elena and Holly would quite happily band together in outrage! But really - isn't squabbling over perceived insults (on both sides) definitely not helping?
erin - Oh, that made me lol. Possibly?
ReplyDeleteShannon - Kristy and I've traded some emails since yesterday; you're quite right. Follow-up post to come. Re: the letter A, as my friend said, male hegemony may be a construct but it's still real. (yes, she is a sociology major. gotta love them.)